Minutes of June 15, 2000

[Approved August 3, 2000]

Present: Robert Boisselle, Bill Dailey, Paul Locke, Peter Mortimer Nancy Naslas, Bruce Rider, David Valade

The minutes of June 1, 2000 were put on hold until the secretary returns from vacation.

Bob reported that on June 13, 2000 he went before the Board of Alderman Budget Committee. For fiscal 1999 we had $17,125; for fiscal year 2000 we had $17,555; for fiscal year 2001 we have $25,810, with an increase of approx. $8,000. The Alderman has given the board acolytes for the efforts in the past experience in issuing the Cease and Desist orders against the City. Bob informed them of the effort we are doing with the school system. We have more books that came in today for the middle school and high school libraries.

William Rose/ 4 Hemenway Ave.

Bill Dailey gave Bob copies of the letters that went to Bill Rose which had crossed in the mail, so we do have appropriate documentation of what was sent to Mr. Rose.

Notice of Intent/Ell Pond

The City of Melrose Park Dept. is requesting a Notice of Intent for planting seventeen trees funded under the DEM Mass Relief Grant. The planting will contribute to erosion control, enhance the natural habitat and create a measure of buffer protection to Ell Pond. Bob passed a map around. They are looking to plant the River Birch, Witch Hazel, Mountain Laurel and the American Beach.

David Dickerson (representing Ell Pond at the request of Rick Amirault): There is a small island of woods right along the shore between the knoll and the pond. The planting is on both sides of that small island. To the west is the gravel footpath that goes eventually to the bridge and the pool, most of which has trees all alone one side. Some of this planting plan finishes that row of trees off, and then continuing east between the exercise facility and the pond, along the shore for the rest of the planting.

Nancy: Are you using any fertilizers?

Mr. Dickerson: No

Bob: Three out of the four plants listed in this planting process are not referred to as wetland planting for the Northeastern United States, and right now I am asking David that if we approve this project tonight it will be conditional upon documentation indicating that these other specific species of plants are acceptable for wetland planting from federal or state level to go ahead on this project.

David Valade: Is it a grassy area?

Mr. Dickerson: The Park Dept. mows pretty much all the way to the shore regrettably I think. Part of this whole idea is more respect for the buffer zone, to eventually convince them of some more possibilities for that area, besides spending mowing on unnecessary mowing, hoping to have more scenic value, wild life habitat, pollutant filtering, paths of recreation, a gravel packed foot path, concentrating on passive as opposed to active recreation, so much for the buffer zone similar to the concept of the Crystal St. area.

David Valade: Are these similar to the species of trees that are already there?

Mr. Dickerson: Yes, the Birch and Witch Hazel are all there. There are two American Beach, there are a bunch of Beech trees on the knoll, I don't know if they are American or European. There are only two of those, there are five Birch, five Witch Hazel, five Mountain Laurel, I don't think there were any Mountain Laurel there, although there are now because there were lots of them in the Crystal Street Grant because that I thought they were accepted New England native species for not necessarily wetlands, but wet areas. If you want to see it locally up in Whip Hill, I know it is down in what would probably qualify as wetland areas. The plants are ordered and are scheduled for delivery on Monday. The planting season window is coming to a close. I am pretty confident that I can convince Bob of the sources of reference for these particular plants. I will get the documentation. Can I ask for one clarification of fertilizer? Certainly, no fertilizer, but how about aid commodore or peat moss, standard soil amendments?

Nancy: I think we usually allow wetland friendly, ones that contain no phosphor. We understand your group is very sensitive to nutrient loading to the pond.

David: A primary concern generally is someone has a lawn next to a buffer zone that they don't put so many chemicals on that they make a big mess.

Voted: to accept the Notice of Intent

Voted: to issue the standard Order of Conditions.

Notice of Intent/Mt. Hood Golf Course Property/Haul Road

In accordance with the provisions of Mass General Law Chapter 39, Section 23B, the Melrose Conservation Commission will hold a public hearing Thursday, June 15 at 7:45 p.m. in the Mayor's Conference Room, 2nd floor City Hall. The purpose of the hearing is to discuss the Notice of Intent submitted by the Melrose Department of Public works for the construction of a temporary haul road adjacent to an isolated land subject to flooding in the Mt. Hood Golf Course property. Any interested person wishing to be heard in this discussion should appear at the time and place designated. Melrose Conservation Commission, Melrose Free Press 6/8/00.

Bob: Are there any abutters to the property?

Joe Lynch: There is one abutter, where it is a parcel greater than 50 acres. The obligation is to identify all abutters within 1000 ft. of the project area, and that being the case, is the City of Melrose itself and Trimount, and thus the attention of the President of Trimount. As a recap, the purpose of our presence tonight is to discuss the Notice of Intent filing. As you actioned at the last meeting, which I believe we are going to do, one Determination of Applicability was positive determination as to isolated land subject to flooding with regard to the resource areas.

Bob: Is this Notice of Intent available to the public for review?

Mr. Lynch: Yes, I believe there is a copy on file in the Planning Office at your table, as well as one in my office throughout the entire period. Nobody came to my office to review it, however it was there for the viewing and should have been requested, and I don't know about the one in your office.

Bob: There is a question concerning the notification of the cutting of the tree before we get into the Notice of Intent which was given to us by Mr. Dunne at the last meeting. Would you like to discuss that, although I will probably rely on the consultant as far as the actual citation of the General Law.

Mr. Dunk: I had Chapter 132, Section 40 to 43.

Mr. Lynch: That speaks to protected forest lands as in Harold Parker State Forest, but they actually had harvesting and tree management plans, whereas they come in on a periodic basis and do sustained yield harvesting, and in those instances they are obligated to file with local Conservation Commissions for their activities. I read the Chapter at the conclusion of the meeting last on June 1 and find it to not apply in this instance and that we are here properly before the Commission with regards to the resource area of isolated land subject to flooding and nothing else.

David Valade: So if the Board of Alderman had declared Mt. Hood a forest as opposed to Mt. Hood Golf Course and Park, it might have applied, but what makes a forest, I mean Harold Parker or someone decided that is a forest?

Mr. Lynch: I won't go so far as to make an actual interpretation of the law. My reading of the law is that it pertains to protected forest lands and they speak specifically to the department, so I am led to conclude that the department being the Department of Environmental Management as they would move forward with their harvesting planting. We read the entire section quoted by Mr. Dunne and I decided those citations as well just to make sure there was nothing slipping through the crack and we are here properly before this Commission on the only resource area being the ILSF.

David Valade: So the way you are interpreting it is whether it is DEM or someone else declares it a forest, this has not been declared a forest, therefore it is not subject to it.

Mr. Lynch: Yes, and they don't make distinctions between dedicated park land vs. forest land. They do specifically say dedicated forest land.

Nancy Naslas: It is a land devoted to forest purposes.

Mr. Lynch: I guess devotion is the operative word, where clearly Mt. Hood is not devoted to such purposes. I did print that citation, but I am just going to stand on what I said.

Nancy: We have it right here. It is on page 290 of the Environmental Handbook for Massachusetts Conservation Commission.

Bob: There is also another question concerning the authority, which was to actually do this project by Mr. Dunne at the last meeting. He was stating that the Board of Alderman is the responsible party for these types of projects. Would you clear that up?

Mr. Lynch: I have no idea what he means by that.

Bob: I guess the impression is that the City has the deed of the property and the Alderman are the owners of this deed at this point, and the Park Dept. has no right to allocate the cutting of trees, etc.

Mr. Lynch: I would say that the care and custody of the park lands are under the jurisdiction of the Park Commission, and to that end we have prepared and submitted as part of our copy to the State the NOI cover page revision which actually has the Park Commission named as the applicant and that I am here as the project representative.

Bob: So the new Notice of Intent has changed?

Mr. Lynch: The applicant's name has changed..

Dwight Dunk (Camp, Dresser & McKee): After submission of the Notice of Intent two weeks ago Joe and I were talking and we changed the applicant to the Parks Department and what I have here tonight, nothing else has changed, just Page 1 of 8, Applicant, and I have two copies of the revised Notice of Intent for the office and I have multiple copies for the Commissioners to insert (Page 1 of 8 only).

Bob: This is an addendum. The new Page 1 of the Notice of Intent indicates the applicant as the Melrose Park Dept., City Hall, 552 Main Street, Melrose, tele. No. 781-979-4177.

Mr. Lynch: Have we called for the DEP # yet?

Mr. Dunk: I have called and I left a message on the machine and they have not gotten back to me.

Mr. Lynch: My presence here is to offer some level of expertise on a technical nature which is what, among other things, one of the challenges raised by Alderman Dunne, though I have often appeared before this Commission on behalf of various municipal applicants. I continue to play a role in that same fashion, whether it be school projects, park projects or Conservation Commission projects themselves. I have appeared before you as the advocates of those projects and I stand here in that capacity.

Presentation

Mr. Lynch: I will repeat the project. The applicant has previously submitted a Request of Determination of Applicability about one month ago and at the last meeting the determination was asked to be a positive one by the applicant, citing specifically the isolated land subject to flooding (you referred to them as water hole 1, water hole 2), also known as the southerly larger hole, or the northerly smaller water hole. As far as geography is concerned, you come upon the first one (southerly one) as you approach the site, you then travel up across the access road across the Tennessee Gas Line and the second one would be to the right, just in the lower portion below and east of Mt. Hood Tower, that is where we are located. Also, this same area is subject to an enforcement action by this Commission, which I believe still stands in place, that being a Cease & Desist Order specific to certain actions being taken for mitigating measures, putting erosion controls in place, and the Commission was then to do an inspection and to be of satisfaction, would then suspend the Cease & Desist Order, leaving it in place should it be needed for any future violation. Those mitigating measures and erosion controls were put in place at the conclusion of one month ago tonight at the RDA meeting and the inspections were done Friday evening and Monday with Commissioner Valade. At the Friday evening inspection you needed some additional fortification of some of those measures and they were in place on Monday evening, at which point and time you verbally notified fellow Commissioners, as well as the applicant, that the site was stable and that work could then commence based on a suspension of the Cease & Desist order, and at that point the analysis, with regards to resource areas specifically moved forward, and looking at them from various prospective whether they were DPW, IOFS, whether they were vernal pools, and by what science and by what method of analysis those resource areas were protected by the Wetlands Protection Act, the law. Camp, Dresser & McKee performed those analyses and I will reserve specific comment as to what those analyses were. I know we had that informal discussion at the prior meeting by way of inviting questions, hopefully to be able to provide answers tonight, which we are I believe, prepared to answer. The project itself is the access road by which the material is brought into this area of Mt. Hood. It travels within jurisdiction of this Commission and those areas of jurisdiction are the two areas of ILSF, the one area of ILSF is what triggered the NOI and that trigger is the fact that it has been encroached upon by virtue of fill coming down and toppling off a side slope and getting in the resource area itself. If that had not happened, had erosion control been put in place first, Request of Determination of Applicability was the appropriate vehicle by which this Commission could act and allow work to proceed with just erosion controls and in responsible barriers in place, but having failed in maintaining those barriers and erosion controls, it has triggered the NOI which is why we are now here before you. If you don't mind I would wish to surrender the technical aspects of the presentation to Mr. Dunk, and from there entertain questions from the Commission and at the direction of the Chair entertain questions from the public if you think it is appropriate.

Mr. Dunk: What I provided here is just a figure that was presented in the Notice of Intent, just to highlight the two isolated lands subject to the flooding and the brown mark indicate the approximate location of hay bale barriers that have been put in place to date. As Joe mentioned after your initial hearing on the Request of Determination of Applicability, Camp, Dresser & McKee was contacted. Shortly thereafter we got out there the end of May, conducted a site visit, one on the 23rd and another one on the 24th. Specifically on the 23rd it was to determine whether or not these isolated lands subject to flooding were of the isolated depressions, were DPW isolated land subject to flooding which are two jurisdictional resource areas, and whether or not they supported breeding for obligate vernal pool species: 1. We went out there and it was our determination that they are both isolated depressions, they are not bordering on any water body or water course, and therefore they are isolated. 2. At that time we had not performed any calculations, but just based on their size and their approximately depth of water based on visual inspection we agreed that they have the capacity and received sufficient volume of runoff to meet the definition of ILSF and that is ¼ acre ft. of water storage. Therefore, we agreed that their positive Determination of Applicability was the appropriate action by the Conservation Commission. We did not observe any positive vernal pool species, egg masses, or any tad poles within the water of either depression on the 23rd of May. It is our determination that these are not vernal pools. There are photographs provided of the 24 hay bales that were in place in the Notice of Intent and that they were located in the southerly depression on the westerly side at the toe of fill slope to prevent the migration or transport sediment from continuing into the depressions and further Conservation Commission's direction, there was also a hay bale and jersey barrier installed at the top of the slope. In addition, our subject was on the 24th, the contractor was director to install a hay bale barrier along the southerly and westerly limits of the northerly depression or depression #2 and that is shown on the highlighted plan. Subsequent to that, with the filling operation ongoing, the contractor has since placed additional hay bale barriers where needed on the westerly limits of the filling and on the northerly extent of gradient of the northerly edge of the southerly depression. That is to prevent any migration of sediment into these depressions. They have been directed to install barriers as needed in addition to the first set of barriers so that there is no continued place for the fill into jurisdictional area. At the previous meeting there was a question concerning the drainage characteristics to these two depressions, and I submit to the Conservation Commission a summary table that shows the area and sq. ft. of the tributary area to both the northerly and southerly depression on your pre-existing conditions at the time this topographic plan was made before any fill was brought into the site, and based on a conceptual draining plan for potential future use of this area as playing fields, what the area of the tributary drainage areas and those proposed runoff areas. That was requested at the informational meeting two weeks ago, so I want to submit that to the Commission tonight, two copies for the Commission then extra copies for the Commission members.

Nancy: Could you summarize the gist of it for us?

Mr. Dunk: What we have is for the southerly depression under the pre-existent conditions, there is approximately 205,000 sq. ft. of tributary area, and we used the 10 yr. design storm event just for comparison purposes, and that is 4.8 inches over 24 hr. period as defined in the wetland regulations for ILSF. The previously runoff volume would have been approximately 39,360 cu. ft. To the northerly depression under existing conditions the watershed is approximately 139,000 sq. ft. with a runoff of 26,690, the calculations showed 26,688 cu. ft. of runoff directed to that depression.

Mr. Lynch: Both of those numbers verify validity of the ILSF, fact that they both exceed a ¼ acre ft.

Mr. Dunk: If we divide both of those runoff volumes by 43,560, it definitely exceeds 10,000 cu. ft. so they are truly ILSF. Under the one conceptual grading plans that shows the potential for construction of one baseball field and one soccer field with the drainage with potential changes in grading for those uses, the tributary area to the southerly depression decreases slightly to just under 200,000 sq. ft. to 193,200 sq. ft. with a slight decrease in the volume of runoff at 39,330 cu. ft. so to the southerly depression would receive approximately the same amount of runoff and really not change the characteristics of that depression. The northerly depression the tributary area increases to 256,000 sq. ft. and the volume of runoff increases over 49,000 cu. ft. and that would receive more runoff during this design storm with a 10 year storm event. I just want to let it ring out this is for comparison purposes. There was concern that maybe water would be that would be grated so there would be less water to these maybe causing them to dry up or some dramatic change. So whatever happens out here as far as future use and build-up would require much more detailed analysis than what was presented here tonight in order to size drainage systems, detention base, etc. that would be needed for facility, but this was in way of comparison so the Commission could get kind of a form of magnitude feel for the change in the drainage.

Bob: I am just interested in that northern depression doubled in size. When you say proposed playing fields and soccer fields, etc., so there is something out there that's a preliminary design, is that what you are saying Dwight?

Mr. Dunk: In order to look at the volume of fill that should be brought in for future use to make a level platform and the elevation at which the fill should be placed, there needed to be (this is purely conceptual at this point) some kind of analysis of what could be built out there.

Mr. Lynch: But moreover, is the tendency of where the field is tilted, northerly, easterly, southerly, westerly, where is it tilted? And by orienting of make sense in providing a gradient that makes sense at an elevation, it shows that the redirection of water away from these areas is not happening, but they can be preserved as ILSF's and continue to function as ILSF's. Moreover, at the water hole #2, the northerly depression does have the ability unmitigated to receive more waters which could be thought of two things: could be thought of increased ILSF, though we are not asking to take credit for it, but we still need to mitigate what we have disturbed in the lower one. I expect you guys are going to order us and mean us to mitigate it, however mitigation typically could be allowed by expanding another area of ILSF. We are not asking for it, though that is exactly what is happening.

Bob: Well, you are almost 30% extra here that you are putting into the area.

Mr. Lynch: That is an area more northerly and more removed from any area where a development would ever be proposed.

Bob: Otherwise you are almost doubling the size of water hole #2.

Nancy: Are you doubling the size or are you just doubling the water that comes in?

Mr. Lynch: I am doubling the volume. Now, storm water management may require mitigating measures with regards to throttling it back.

Nancy: A grade taking water away from.

Mr. Dunk: I just want to mention one other item in the Notice of Intent. Joe touched upon it as far as the mitigation, etc. In the Notice of Intent we did present that once the filling operation, the grading out here is done, and the haul road is no longer needed to be utilized by large equipment and trucks and large bulldozers, that the haul road would be regraded and the fill that has inadvertently slopped off the slope into ILSF, one will be removed and that slope will be regarded to a shallower slope and permanently stabilized, that is in the Notice of Intent. So it is not the City's intention to leave that fill that is in there now, to leave it there and mitigate to somewhere else. The intention is to pull that out and that is approximately 300 sq. ft. of fill that made its way in that depression, so that is in the NOI and that is what is proposed. Now, getting back to the runoff, there would be changes in the soil conditions. Out there, as you know, its bedrock out croppings, hills, there are tilly soils, the thin soils makes the existing soil condition such that there is minimal infiltration into the ground water under pre-existing conditions. When and if there are ball fields built out here, because of the nature of the fill that is being used to prepare the subgrades, there needs to be a good drainage layer installed of this and then standard practice now is to use a well draining sandy loam for playing fields, which would actually probably reduce the rate of runoff and how that changes, and that would allow more infiltration into the soils and then it would drain off once it hits the more less pervious clay material that is being used for the fill. But under these calculations we have assumed that existing conditions were Type C soils, and under future conditions we assumed that all the playing field areas were still Class C, so it is a conservative approach not taken into account increased infiltration and that also there are pavement areas for access roads and that is considered impervious, so that is where you obviously see some total increase in volume because of areas, but also because of some pervious area for potential driveways and parking lots. I think that I presented the NOI that was in there and this additional information that was asked by the Commission two weeks ago.

Bob: You may want to touch upon the no vernal pool classification that you did in a study in late May, and I also believe you had a similar study in surrounding communities going on.

Mr. Dunk: Yes, we looked at this site in late May, which is usually considered fairly late to be looking for egg masses for all the vernal pool species, however we had wetland scientists out doing work in the City of Beverly north of Melrose, but in northeastern Massachusetts, and egg masses were observed the day on May 21 before people came here. That being the case, it is our opinion that the hatching out period was delayed somewhat this spring and that egg masses were still viable and observable on May 23 in northeastern Mass, and not seeing any egg masses is a good intention that these depressions are not used in vernal pools. Our wetlands folks who were out there also did look for tad poles that had hatched out, they did not observe any tad poles and also, as usually they try to turn over rocks, logs, etc. to look for adults in the surrounding area and they did not observe any adults either.

Mr. Lynch: Where the last meeting was information, I do think we do need to, for the record, restate a lot of things that were said with regards to the science of vernal pool analysis, which starts with the geology and any prior history of the study that may have been done in 1996.

Mr. Dunk: In 1996 for the master plan, the entire site was walked by wetlands biologist to identify jurisdictional areas and potential jurisdictional areas. During that site walk he identified a number of areas, I believe it was nine that were jurisdictional or potentially jurisdictional, identified two that were vernal pools that since have been mapped and are shown in the Notice of Intent on the estimated habitat's map to vernal pools on the site that are for the southwest of these locations. These two depressions were not identified at that time from that previous investigation as being vernal pools either, so with the 1996 evaluation our subsequent 2000 evaluation. The vernal pools, as you may all be aware, but to get in the record are breeding spots for amphibians in Massachusetts or everywhere. The amphibian lay their eggs in the water, they are required to stay in the water until they hatch up as tad poles. The tad poles live within the pools until they metamorphose into juvenile and adults and leave the water and live their terrestrial life, so therefore to be a viable vernal pool it needs to be standing water that is free of a fish population that would prey on the egg masses and tad poles, and also that, although it is temporary, precludes the presence of fish. It stays long enough into the season to allow the tad poles to grow and develop into the terrestrial form. In addition to the temporary water condition, you also need a good habitat around the pool to support a population of breeding adults, and that is generally considered a good upland forest with nice dense leaf litter. They are often called mole salamanders, spotted salamanders. They are called mole salamanders because they basically live somewhat underground, underneath the wheat, litter and duff, that is why you need to lift up rocks and logs and what not to look for them. In where these two depressions are, and you are well aware to the east is the quarry, drops rapidly to the east of the gas line easement and much of the area surrounding here, although it is golf course which is fairway rough with sparse areas of woods in between the fairways, in between the two ILSF's there was wooded area that certainly has potential to survive habitat, but since it is fairly limited area, it may not have been big enough to support the adult forms and not seeing egg masses it is pretty good indication that there is probably not sufficient habitat around these depressions to support population of breeding salamanders or wood frogs. People did mention that they have heard beepers in the area. When we look for vernal pools, we like to look for obligate vernal pool species and the ones that are easiest to identify. The egg masses are pretty touch and long lasting so that they are good to identify. The spring beepers are considered facultative vernal pool species, that is they utilize the vernal pools for breeding, but they also utilize plenty of waters, lakes and ponds that do also have predatory fish populations. They will also use permanent water bodies to breed in. They are not really limited to just the vernal pools, so that is why when you hear beepers you also have to look for many other features of the pools, which these pools don't have, so it is our opinion they do not support obligate vernal pool species and are not vernal pools.

Nancy: Regarding that 1996 report, it was before I joined the Commission that was presented to us, but in discussions regarding that report it is my understanding that one of the purposes of the report may be not specifically in writing, but one of the goals was to certify as many vernal pools as possible in the area.

Mr. Dunk: Yes, two were certified as a result of that.

Nancy: All the potential resource areas, that was another goal to identify those. In looking at your figures in your Notice of Intent, that is the preexisting conditions topography on that map?

Mr. Dunk: Yes

Nancy: A member of the public previously mentioned have we already filled in something, and looking at the topo map do you see any depressions?

Mr. Dunk: No, where the fill has been placed and proposed to be placed, there is no evidence of looking at the topography that those areas contain any depressions that could potentially have been pools.

Nancy: At one of the previous informational meetings we had regarding this project, we were shown one of these conceptual designs with the fields, and on one of those maps one of the fields was overlying the northerly depression. Based on this Notice of Intent, your limit of work will now not go past the boundaries of these isolated lands subject to flooding?

Mr. Lynch: Let me answer that more emphatically. This Notice of Intent lies very specific to the access road. As I said at the last meeting, but I will say it now at this hearing, that when the plan is developed, the design of the recreational areas of the ball fields, the parking areas, and the roadways about them, that even if they are not jurisdictional to the Wetlands Protection Act, as a matter of courtesy the plan will be brought back before this Commission as a matter of information, and because we realize you guys are out about town, running into your friends and family at church, at synagogue or at the store, and you need to have at least some level of intelligence to be able to answer the questions, so we will bring that forward as a matter of courtesy for information, and should any designs result in work within the jurisdictional areas, it is a given that those will be accompanied with a Notice of Intent, though the conceptual work that we believe the way the area looks and the way that the fields would need to be typically laid out, I have high confidence that we will not be working within the jurisdiction of these two areas.

Nancy: In any case right now, your Notice of Intent, for the purpose of these resource areas identified on your map, your limit of work is ILSF.

Mr. Lynch: That is correct.

Mr. Dunk: Also, one of the constraints that were used for a conceptual layout in grading that we used to develop the drainage characteristics developed submitted tonight, that one constraint that was placed on is no place for the fill within either of these ILSF's.

Mr. Lynch: In plantable maintainable slopes, from the toe of any fill area to the limit of work, that being erosion control vegetation can be planted like clover, or something more substantial to retain the integrity of that slope in any runoff condition, and all of that would occur outside of these limits of work, so that only toe of slope, not getting up close to it, but also the slopes at which those work areas get approximately located to these areas, would be a sustainable way of vegetation.

David: I have some questions. First, on the calculations on the drainage, I have questions on both depressions. The first is that on the northerly depression, you are about double in the area of sq. footage that it is draining from, and approximately doubling the amount of water that is going there. Where is that water not going to be going?

Mr. Dunk: It is not going to be going to the southerly depression.

Dave: Actually your numbers would indicate that is not correct because that only has 30 cu. ft. difference between the two and you are talking about 23,000 or so cu. ft.

Mr. Dunk: It is because of the change on the northerly depression. There has to be a net increase of water because there is a change in the soil conditions and I may have misspoken. We looked at the tributary drainage areas to these two areas specifically. We have a decrease in the southerly, an increase in the northerly, but it is not corresponding because we probably had some shifting that would flow to the west.

Dave: So when moving it from the west it will increase? There are two questions, one of them in the southerly depression, I assume that the reason why you are going somewhere between 5 ½ and 6% less area, draining the same place and keeping the volume constant is that you'd be replacing vegetated area with paved surfaces.

Mr. Dunk: I have to reconfigure all of the drainage lines in my mind. We are taking drainage area that currently flows to the southerly depression on this concept which show a big increase of going to the northerly depression. We also have areas that currently south of the southerly depression do not flow into it that would be regarded so that areas to the south of the southerly depression now continue to flow in a southwesterly direction would be directed to the southerly depression, so there is a change there.

Bob: You are actually taking the plain and sort of tilting it the north.

Dave: Will this be removing any water from any other resource area?

Mr. Dunk: I can't answer that because we haven't looked at any of the adjacent water sheds where the purpose of this comparison was to respond to the Commission's comment of the last meeting as to whether or not we would be significantly changing the watersheds of these areas.

Dave: I know that is jurisdictional after the fact. When I read this I have to admit being somewhat amused when I read the project description where it said that it is authorized construction of a temporary haul road. It is actually currently already placed, but the questions I want to ask are around actually one of the project narratives, and Joe, I have to apologize because I am going to ask you questions that I think were about decisions that you didn't make and probably weren't even a part of, that the appropriate person to ask isn't here tonight, meaning whomever made the decisions. I know we have worked with you on a number of other projects. You have diligently followed the wetlands regulations, you are stuck answering questions that I would rather ask somebody else. Is the road wider than it was intended?

Mr. Lynch: No

Dave: Is it in a different place than it was intended?

Mr. Lynch: I am going to retract the last answer. I don't know what the intention was. If you are asking is it wider than it needs to be, then I think I would say no.

Dave: What I am getting at is two reasons that I can see that accidental depositing of the soil into this area happened. First, that it was wider than it was planned, the second was in a different position as was planned. I have been out there and the slope of that bank couldn't have been any steeper without using some method of stabilization, but my point I am trying to make is if it is not wider and it is not in a different place, it wasn't an accident, someone made a decision and intentionally did it. That is really what I was asking the questions geared towards.

Bob: I don't think he can answer that.

Mr. Lynch: I don't know what the intention was, but I speak the same observations you made.

Dave: Now come much easier questions. That bank is fairly steep. There could be erosion that could happen beyond what the hale bales could hold. At this point and time a heavy rainstorm could sweep it down, overflow the hay bales, is there any other kind of stabilization that is going to be done temporarily to the bank?

Mr. Lynch: I think, if necessary. I offered at the informational public meeting and I will now offer at this public hearing that I would expect through any decision issued by this Commission, if it is an affirmative decision, that an Environmental Monitor be put in place, and that the Environmental Monitor look at things like erosion controls and threats of slopes and report daily to some public official and I recommend it would be me, and that a bi-weekly written report be made available of his findings, copied to me and to this Commission.

Dave: In that we conditioned that additional stabilization of the bank be done, could you do it in a way that wasn't cost prohibited from a temporary prospective and in long term you plan to vegetate it.

Mr. Lynch: It is coming out.

Dave: You are pulling it out, but then you are going to vegetate the new bank?

M. Lynch: Yes

Bob: The only question I have on that is that if the project goes longer than expected, if that hill can be vegetated some way.

Dave: That actually goes into one of my questions, is there a date set now? Are you going to be able to say to us that on 6/15/01 this will be done and it will be removed?

Mr. Lynch: There is no date set that I know of, but I think more reasonable is that this Commission should consider stabilization by way of vegetation should the whole road and slope not be stabilized prior to September15, coming into the fall growing season and also coming into the fall rain season, at that point and time vegetation be put in place, whether it be a winter rye or something to hold that slope through the winter months.

Mr. Dunk: This is a pretty steep slope and to put top soil on this slope and stabilize it would be difficult.

Dave: It would probably require further encroachment or building a wall at the foot of the slope.

Mr. Dunk: The one saving grace of this material is, I have seen it used in many other types around the city, once it gets wet and then dries out, it dries like concrete, very hard and you don't get really a lot of sediment or washing off of this material, what you do get is more of a turbidity in the water because it is such a fine grain size material. If this slope is to be regarded to a shallower slope before the winter, then I think that loaming and seeding is definitely appropriate. If the slope is to stay similar to what it is now, we have used on some landfills a polymer material that is sprayed on and works very well. In fact it stood up throughout the entire winter of heavy rains with CAT material (8 acres of exposed CAT material, and with that material we had no failure and no wash out, so these polymer are very good.

Dave: The last question I have is have either of you or any member of the Commission been up to the site in the last couple of days? I haven't been there, but a member of the public indicated to me that there are hay bales that are floating.

Mr. Lynch: Yes, I have been. There has been a notification from the Environmental Monitor. The clerk is out there acting in that capacity as a file in anticipation that you guys are ordering it. Reported to me in the last rainstorm a couple of nights ago, that we did have a breach that caused these areas to fill up which is exactly the reason why we have four to five additional hay bales here, and though it is not clear, this area, way outside of jurisdiction up here, the way the fill is moving northerly and westerly, there are certain amounts of water trapped behind that fill. That fill that continues, that water was meandering its way around this knob so as a check dam there are two other series of hay bale strings that were laid out up there as a method of one stilling, calming the water down to allow the tributary to settle through, and secondly to allow the water filter through the hay bales, so there is two batteries of hay removed from the depression area, and lastly they fortified this area this morning.

Dave: Were any of the hay bale problems at the foot of the slope at the haul road?

Mr. Lynch: No, the hay bales I saw floating when out there this morning were up in this area, and in fact probably supporting the increase in flood storage within the ILSF, simply saying great, it was excellent to protect that area where the limits of flooding previously were, but we have moved them up the hill further.

Dave: Okay, my concern was at the base of the slope. If there is a problem with those hay bales, there is almost nowhere else you can go other than further up the slopes.

Mr. Lynch: In speaking specifically to this one, this water hole #2 the integrity has not been compromised. That remains in tact, and has remained in tact since the day they were put in place.

Bob: Gentleman, in looking at this topo, was there any possibility of connection between the northerly and southerly, or water hole 1 and water hole 2?

Mr. Dunk: The limits of depression is identified as the northerly was elevation 194 ft. and the southerly was 176 ft. Between them, right near their limits of the northerly depression there is a high spot of 196.4 ft., above which in the northerly depression. If water were to fill up higher than 196.4 ft., it could spill over to the southerly depression, however there is no gullying or anything in this area that would show hydraulic connection and there is no wetland species or wetland plant communities south of northerly depression that would show that there was a ponderance of water flowing in that area to support a wetland community. So there is no routine regular hydraulic connection that would have caused there be an intermittent stream or frail stream or vegetated wetland in any way connecting the two.

Mr. Lynch: I can elaborate on that. If in the evolution of the design plans of the recreation area as part of the storm water management plan, necessitates reconnecting by way of pipeline in order to control any increases in runoff that can otherwise be mitigated, it would trigger yet another separate Notice of Intent. If the redirection of water becomes an issue, if we need to maintain hydrology to one area vs. another by way of feed hydrology to make sure they stay wet, then it may be necessitative that you come in and provide hydraulic connection to make sure the hydraulic gets there. If that becomes necessary there will be a separate filing with all of the analysis and calculations to back that up.

Dave: If I understand that correctly and I think I do, you are saying this is for the road. If you are going to be changing drainage, then this will be something for coming back again.

Nancy: In looking at these two depressions, do you think it is possible that they formed because of the perimeter road to the quarry in the first place or do you think they have been there for a while?

Mr. Dunk: I think that road has been there longer than I have been alive.

Nancy: Are you thinking that maybe the recentness of the construction could contribute to the fact that they are not vernal pools?

Mr. Dunk: Well, this topography I believe was taken back in 1996 or thereabouts.

Dave: My guess from seeing it is that the water that makes ILSF could be the results of the road for the depressions aren't because the rocks and things you can see in both of them are well aged.

Mr. Lynch: To answer Nancy's question now, and I am going to relate now to my experience and knowledge of the compost area, and the compost area lies immediately to the east of this haul road shown on figure 3, and then east of it is the Mt. Trimount Quarry, but in the compost area, formerly quarried area, there is a steep vertical rock face which does run up approximately parallel to and very near the access road and a perimeter road is a road that has been in place and was since the 80's, late 70's when it was ordered by the Attorney General's Office with regards to providing safety perimeter around the quarry were for people who find themselves on the precipitous edge and fallen over, it gives them this safe zone, if you will, to realize that they are in a danger area. So it goes back those many years and it abuts the vertical walk facing the compost area, so that being the case even if the whole world was bringing additional material in, and I think it did, is by way of providing the flat area that the rock face is immediately next to it, so I don't think it changed the geographic location where the rock is located. I think, moreover what drove the topography in trapping the water is the installation of the TENNECO gas lines some many years ago. Both of these areas are coincidental to the TENNECO easement and they exist in hollow areas left behind by way of that gas line installation. There is a high pressure gas line that was put in some 30 - 40 years ago, so I think that creates the depressions and moreover, predates the perimeter access road. Nonetheless, neither of them are natural occurrences. They are both manual manipulations and alterations of the land.

Bruce Rider: How wide or how large will this northern ILSF increase with the addition of water? Is it possible it would flow above 196 ft.?

Mr. Dunk: I haven't done that analysis. I couldn't answer that with any degree of certainty. Again, that volume calculation was formally to get an order of magnitude issues to whether or not we are drying up or significantly increasing the flow, so that is all that was for. When and if this future work out here goes forward, that would be evaluated as to how much flow is going in there, how much flow is coming out over that 196 if it comes out above that, and what that extent would be, but if these grades in between here are held, they could only extend to elevation 196 an there is grading going on in here, so it would be still within this area.

Mr. Lynch: Any future design and development of the recreation areas having generated storm water collection, would have to be looked at in its own light and looking at its height specific, and then finding out where the water should discharge to. Should an alteration of those discharge areas to either of these two areas change, whether they be positive or negative or higher volumes or lower volumes, would trigger storm water management anyway, and that storm water management be impede whether the detention areas or arbitration uses uptake within the recreation sods and trees, etc. or always into it. The former standard in developing the design, would be to: 1) make sure the present hydrology stays in tact, and 2) to not increase the runoff beyond what these areas can tolerate as a receive of water.

Bruce: At our last meeting you recommended an Environmental Monitor, are you going to do that tonight also at the hearing?

Mr. Lynch: Yes, if I didn't say it earlier this evening, I will say it again that I would expect this Commission through an Order of Conditions that they might issue to require an Environmental Monitor be put in place on this project, one that evaluates on a frequent basis. I don't mean every other day or every third day, I mean on a daily basis the integrity of the erosion controls and any impact or breaches of those erosion controls.

Bob: Is the individual called Environmental Monitor or Clerk of the Works.

Mr. Lynch: It's capacity within your order should be an Environmental Monitor.

Nancy: It might be the same person as the Clerk of the Works.

Mr. Lynch: Yes, and that he report daily his findings verbally to me and no less frequently than biweekly he submit a written report to the Park Commission, Public Works Dept. and this Commission.

David: Would it make sense that if there were a prediction of a rainstorm that would be say 10, 25 or 100 yr. event, I am not sure what number we'd pick that would be appropriate, that the monitoring happen more frequently than daily and the report happen as well more frequently? The long and short of this, if we were expecting a big storm, it would make sense to go up there a couple of times during the storm.

Mr. Lynch: Correct. I would assent to that.

Bruce: You also mentioned in the last meeting from reading the minutes that this person would also be responsible for looking at the contents of the fill?

Mr. Lynch: I think it lies outside of the jurisdiction of this Commission, but that would be one of the things I would expect him to do, to continue to evaluate the loads bearing errant debris, or things that may find its way into wood or dolls, cups, or Burger King wrappers, that they be picked from the loads after they are dumped. There is a dumpster on site. They are handpicking. It doesn't lie within the jurisdiction of this Commission to order that, but it is happening if you want to add it in, he is doing it anyway.

Bruce: What level of expertise should we request of this Environmental Monitor. Should he be of the level of a licensed site professional, an LSP?

Mr. Lynch: We are not talking about hazard material. The individual needs to be confident in dealing with understanding the way the waters flow, to make sure these hay bales get put down in and maintained.

Nancy: Should this be an Engineer or an Environmental Scientist?

Mr. Lynch: I wouldn't go that far. It certainly is a prerogative to do things appropriate, The reality is that it needs to be someone with common sense. Now that may be a difficult thing to condition. I am not sure you can grant me the authority to act on his behalf, but I suppose again if he is reporting to me daily, then I take on the role as the competent person in directing what it is he does, I suppose you can condition that. He is reporting to me daily and I know I don't take it at face value, I haven't thus far and I won't, but I need to have the ability to say fine, great, move those hay bales, put them in, fortify them, stake them, put another role behind them, do it again early and say you need this row here, and you need two more rows above it. I am not sure how you condition all of that.

Nancy: Could it be conditioned upon your approval, and can we approve this person? Do we have some say on the selection of this person?

Dave: We could say a qualified individual and if we don't feel whoever is appointed qualifies, we could notify them of that.

Bob: They have stated that I will report to the City Engineer that the individual is not doing his or her job correctly.

Dave: I agree it is hard to define a person that is qualified to do hay bales on a regular basis.

Nancy: And also to know that they are installed properly and that you are not having problems with this work.

Mr. Lynch: If typically on a construction site without a Environmental Monitor formally put in place, it would be incumbent upon the contractor. It is going to be a laborer, a foreman, may even be the superintendent who does it as he sees fit, but it needs to be somebody who is empathetically in place, whose duty it is to do it. I said at the last meeting and I need to say it for the public hearing, the Environmental Monitor does not preclude the authority of the Commission. You people have the ability to come out and inspect the site at any time and to take action should it need be, and if you are not satisfied we will report your receiving, whether it be verbal or written, to take the action that is appropriate, so the Environmental Monitor is not intended to usurp your authority.

Nancy: I just want to clarify the questions regarding the forestry. I think that is up in the air a little bit, and Bruce pointed out to me that a classification is required.

Bruce: It is Forest Land Assessment, Chapter 61. It says that forest lands need to be classified, and of course that is in order to be taxed, but in Chapters 132 it mentions forest land, so I assume my legal expertise revolves around reading this book. So from my understanding, forest land would have to be something that would be designated forest land by the State.

David: I would agree, as opposed to just a place with trees that a common lay person would say the forest.

Bruce: In other words you could say there is a forest in front of 145 Pleasant St. because there is five trees.

Mr. Dunk: I believe when the master plan was prepared, did the City also receive some type of assistance, be it a urban or self help grant, that would have identified this as park land vs. some other designation, a forest designation by the State, so even though there is a wooded area on the golf course it would not be a designated forest land by the State.

David: So even though it is a forest, it is not technically a protective forest.

Public Hearing

Terry Waugh, 357 Porter St: The area #1 that has been filled in with clay already, how are you going to remove all that clay if it turns to cement without damaging the area further, and the second question to the west there is a whole big area of water that they have been draining, and it is covered with oil. Where is all that water going, at the pump that is still there.

Mr. Dunk: I will try to answer the first question, and Joe answer the 2nd question. That material, like cement, after it is wet and dries out, it hardens. It can be removed with machinery with a bucket going down and scooping it up and taking it out without significant damage below. It would require some final smoothing, raking and then reseeding after that material is removed, so it can be done. There will be some minor soil disruption that will be raked, smoothed and seeded.

Mr. Lynch: With regards to Mrs. Waugh's second question, the turbinate water that existed on the westerly extreme of the fill operation is exactly what necessitated my direction to have two courses of stilling hay bales put in place so when the water was dumped, and this is the trapped water that the fill is moving behind, that the pumped water is discharged to fully confined hay bale area up above and I am going to point to figure 3 as we did earlier, if you don't mind, so I can be clear. Up in this area it was discharged westerly where the water was puddled, ponded into hay bales to take a primary settlement to all the silts to settle out into the basin itself, then through the hay bales having done that, it finds its way down between this rock crevice if you will, to then two conditional batteries of hay bales to allow filtration through it so by the time it is discharged through that second battery hay bales, it has now received primary, secondary and third level of filtration through the bales of the discharge of waters back to this area.

Mrs. Waugh: It still looks kind of crummy. It doesn't look like pollen or anything on #1.

Mr. Lynch: It is the turbant water as Mr. Dunk spoke earlier of. The clay has a very fine grade size clay flatness to it and its suspension is like a milk shake. It stirred up in turbant and stays in suspension and over time settles down, which is exactly why you want slow discharged water down behind hay bales to allow all that to occur. That water is the result of what is to find its way down to the river reed that is now being impounded behind the clay fill material. If it had been left there, it could rise and breach and then we would have the very catastrophe that Mr. Valade was speaking of, that during a storm event it would be discharging uncontrolled. So to keep it down, discharged to this quieting area to allow it to settle, is a responsible thing to mitigate any breach.

Mrs. Waugh: Thank you.

Jerry Benezra, 340 Porter St.: My usual first question is are the minutes now available? They have not been located on the web.

Bob: The minutes have been submitted to the ICO office here and they are in charge of getting them up on the web.

Mr. Benezra: Could we get hard copies for now without waiting for that? Is that possible?

Bob: Yes, we will get it to you.

Mr. Benezra: I just want to say once again that my concern here is not an interest in stopping this project, but an interest in making sure that the proper processes have been followed. I would like to start by saying I believe there is a significant issue here as to whether or not this notice is properly before you. We have been attending every meeting of the Park Commission and unless there was a meeting in violation of the open meeting which would make their action voidable in my opinion, there has been no vote or discussion by that board requesting that anyone on their behalf file anything with this Commission, and part of the process I have been raising consistently is the fact that we are all creatures of law, as is the City, although there may be some who don't believe that in the administration, and so I believe that, and I want to make sure because this may not end here, there has been no vote unless somebody can tell me and produce minutes, although those are hard to get from the Park Commission, that would either authorize someone to file this on behalf of the Park Commission or to appear here tonight. Now I will represent to you that it is very clear to me as an attorney, and there are attorneys on this board for the Commission, that the Park Commission clearly has jurisdiction over this park land, so I would say that is a very serious issue that you need to determine, and the only reason I wanted to raise it earlier, Mr. Chairman, was I didn't want to see everybody spend the time here at what may or may not be, depending on the answer to that question, a waste of time. So I leave that question to you and think that is a question that you must deal with prior to your acting on this, and I think that needs to be submitted and I would like it to be submitted in writing and I would hope it would be made available to the public. Just on two passing matters, also again I think related to process, I know that there were a number of legal opinions being given by engineers and others, and I am just wondering whether or not anyone thought to ask the City Solicitor for an opinion on any of the questions that were raised by Mr. Dunne. If I could ask that question through the Chair I would appreciate it.

Bob: No

Mr. Benezra: You are not going to allow the public to ask questions of Mr. Lynch, is that what you are saying now, Mr. Boisselle? I am asking if Mr. Lynch can tell us whether or not anyone, and I asked permission through the Chair, whether or not anyone thought to ask the City Solicitor for opinion on any of the legal questions that were raised by an alderman.

Mr. Lynch: Mr. Chairman, when Attorney Benezra asks of a legal opinion, I think it means it in his legal sense of an opinion, however in reading the law we discussed the outlandish suggestion that the Chapter cited by Alderman Dunne apply in this instance and I walked away from that discussion, understanding that no opinion was necessary, it was pretty black and white. Alderman Dunne in the past has cited laws, often times waved over his head the law that he speaks to only define what he is holding in his hand is not what he says it is, moreover it is not interpreted to mean what he says it means, so under the circumstances given the bazaar nature, he could have just as simply had said that this was a cemetery protected under a general law, but I don't believe it applies and I would equally say does not need an opinion.

Mr. Benezra: Was there a discussion with Donnie Conn?

Mr. Lynch: Yes

Mr. Benezra: The next question is the hay bales that were seen in the water, have they been removed as of today?

Mr. Lynch: No

Mr. Benezra: Is there a reason why those hay bales haven't been removed if we have somebody up there monitoring it?

Mr. Lynch: Yes, at any work within that water, I believe would only add to the turbidity within the water and moving the hay bales has no benefit, and quite frankly provides some sort of an additional level of protection. Should an additional breach occur, the water's recede and it is deemed safe enough to remove without causing harm, it can be, but under the circumstances they are now, it is not appropriate to remove them.

Mr. Benezra: Has another hay bale been put in its place out of the water?

Mr. Lynch: Yes, it was done this morning.

Mr. Benezra: Can you tell us who was doing the monitoring?

Mr. Lynch: I only know him by first name, it is Tom.

Mr. Benezra: Is he a City employee, or is he a contractor?

Mr. Lynch: He is not a City employee, I am not sure who he is an employee of?

Mr. Benezra: Does he report to you?

Mr. Lynch: What I am asking is in anticipation of this Commission taking an action, I have asked that I evaluated his capability to provide in his role as an Environmental Monitor. I am expecting that is what this Commission is going to do. Thus far I have been satisfied somewhat with his ability to report to me timely his concerns.

Mr. Benezra: Do you know who selected him?

Mr. Lynch: It was the Clerk that was on the project.

Mr. Benezra: If I can ask Mr. Dunk, regarding these calculations that you provided us with, can you tell me what the assumptions were, for example the amount of fill that would be in the area.

Mr. Dunk: These have nothing to do with the amount of fill placed in the area. These are based on existing of proposed grades.

Mr. Benezra: What are the proposed grades you used as an assumption for these in the area that is being filled?

Mr. Dunk: The plus or minus elevation 230 between the northerly and southerly depression, and approximately elevation 190 south of the southerly depression.

Mr. Benezra: Do you know who is responsible for those assumptions for this elevation?

Mr. Dunk: One of the landscape architects in our office.

Mr. Benezra: And has there been any calculation as to how much fill would go into that area to bring this to the elevation that was the basis for his assumption?

Mr. Dunk: I don't know.

Mr. Benezra: Do you know whether or not he considered the fact that there have been statement made in the City 1,000,000 cu. yd. going in there?

Mr. Dunk: I haven't heard of anything of volumes and if he has discussed volumes and knows the volumes, he didn't have a discussion with me.

Mr. Benezra: Is it fair to say sir, that in order to have drainage calculations you have to know what the heights are going to be?

Mr. Dunk: That is what I have. I have elevated proposal of elevations.

Mr. Benezra: And for those being proposed by Camp Dresser & McKee?

Mr. Dunk: CDM landscape architect has looked at what a level platform would be in order to site the ball field between the northerly and southerly depression, and another ball field south of the southerly depression, and in that area they have ordered to provide adequate sizing that would need to have those proposed elevations.

Mr. Benezra: And that would call a specific amount of fill, is that correct?

Mr. Dunk: Yes, but the fill calculations as far as I know have not been determined.

David: Can I try to answer it and you tell me if I am wrong. Based on what I have learned in prior Conservation Commission meetings, when they do calculations for runoffs, they have computer modeling software where they put in the elevation and it tells it what it is. I assume that you then put the new elevation and it tells what it is. You could use different software to calculate the fill, but you wouldn't have to know that to know what the drainage would be.

Mr. Benezra: Let me just explain my point, and then I will make it easier for you. My point, sir, is that we have been told I've seen a contract talk about 300. I have public statements made by Mayor about million, and would like to know, as I thought you would in order to look at calculations, I'd need no assumptions. So what we really have been talking about up until tonight has been tonnage, how much tonnage they need to bring in, how much tonnage we are going to get. We have been given numbers that the public has been told we are going to have this much money so we can create a ball field and do all the things that we have been told by Mr. Dunk that we are going to need to do, so I am just trying to figure out in my mind how you arrived at these assumptions, is it 300, is it a million, is it somewhere between, so that maybe the public would have a sense of how this relates to tonnage, so the Park Commission when they pass on the contract next week, could have a sense of what should go in there, if this is going to be 230, 240 or 210, or whatever it is, what do we need from this contractor, and so that the normal decisions made by the administration and various agencies would have all the information which goes again to my prophase.

Mr. Lynch: Mr. Chairman, if you don't mind, I can speak to the issue. The assumptions that Mr. Dunk speaks of are not guesses, they are educated assumptions based on the conceptual layout. If the conceptual layout evolves through the public process that results in a baseball field and a soccer field, then 230 ft. elevation that the hydrologist has based the calculation on remains valid. If that means that area is filled and there is still more fill available, it doesn't go in that area higher than the 230. Now does that mean that surplus material could go elsewhere or it could be surplus material, I guess it would have to be judged of its merit, but with regards to this area and with regards to this filing, we are speaking on a hydrologic assumption that is based on a conception designed that derives a baseball field at 230. That is not to say that there is a million yd. in Attorney Benezra's number, doesn't mean that the elevation goes to 300, 354, doesn't mean that. That is said on the record. The intention is to not fill this area, nor just simply receive all of this material beyond what the design would support to house or facilitate recreation area.

Mr. Benezra: I am conceptually challenged, so maybe you could help me. If the elevation is 230, could you tell me out there from some point in some places how high that is? Is it above those right side rock out croppings, is it below those rock out croppings?

Mr. Dunk: Look at Figure 3. Here is an elevation of 230 here. This is the haul road. The Slayton Tower is up in here. The area where fill is being placed varies in elevation from approximately 180 up to 210, there is a knoll at 223. If the area is to be brought up to elevation 230, here is an elevation of 220, so it will be brought up higher and it will extend further to the west than is shown in this figure.

Bob: If you were standing at one of the ridges on the southern slope, it will be 10 ft. higher on that ridge.

Mr. Benezra: So it will be 10 ft. higher than that rock out cropping?

Mr. Dunk: Approximately.

Mr. Benezra: Can you tell me what type will be included in a more detailed anaylsis down the line as far as drainage?

Mr. Dunk: For the summary table that was presented, the Commissions and I would suggest look at the grading, assuming it is approximately 230 ft. of fill. There will need to be fine tune grading. Whenever a ball field is built, you don't want it to be so steep that you can't play on it, yet it cannot be dead flat, otherwise it would go non-drain. You need to have a drainage on a playing field, but between ½% to 1 ½%. ½% grade means ½ ft. vertical to 100 ft. horizontal. 1 ½% would be 1 ½ ft. vertical to 100 ft. horizontal, so you need a slight pitch. Now depending on where high points and low points are put on a fairly level platform of a playing field will depend on what the final tributary areas to both of these depressions will be and that is the type of fine tune grading plan that would be needed to do that. Now based on that plan, the drainage runoff rates would be calculated an the drainage system and the flow pass would be designed to accommodate the flows off of those areas.

Mr. Benezra: If I were doing a time line, you need to sense two things like it is happening once. Your landscape architect would prepare a plan for what the ball field is going to be and at the same time you would be doing the grading plan.

Mr. Dunk: You would do the grading plan first because you need to know what area of fairly level ground you have. What Joe Lynch was saying is by the City if they were to bring in a million cu. yd. or some volume and they brought it up too high because in order for fill to be stable it needs to have slopes and gradually go up, if you go high it becomes too small for a playing field, so it is not to the City's interest to bring in material and make this a huge peak. It needs to have a level platform large enough to support the proposed uses.

Bob: I would like to have the line of question move back to the appropriate Notice of Intent. The NOI is basically submitted for the Mt. Hood Haul Road and its impact upon two water bodies. We are not here to discuss the entire project or contracts that are involved here, so Mr. Benezra, please direct your questions towards the haul road and two bodies of water.

Mr. Benezra: Well there was a sensitivity of time and I am just picking up on that issue that one of the Commission members had, Mr. Chairman. When might this Commission and the public see a final drainage plan? Is it months?

Mr. Dunk: I don't know. We have been charged to prepare this Notice of Intent for the haul road and that is what we have done and just a conceptual layout is whether or not the fields could be built here and I don't have any other time frame as far as when anything will be presented.

Mr. Benezra: So there is question whether the ball field could be done here?

Mr. Dunk: We were asked to determine the feasibility.

Mr. Benezra: You indicated the 10 year storm. Is that what you commonly do, you just stop at the 10 yr. storm when you are a developer representing a project?

Mr. Dunk: I was asked to look at the potential changes in the drainage characteristics, and there really are no guidelines when you have a general question like that, so I picked a routine design storm that is typically used for drainage analysis.

Mr. Benezra: As I understand it, some of the issues that are your Notice of Intent relate to mitigation. Is that correct?

Mr. Dunk: Yes, the haul road.

Mr. Benezra: Is everything that you need now available to you to make all the determinations to what that mitigation would be? Is there anything left that is conceptual that relates to the issue of mitigation?

Mr. Dunk: We presented the mitigation for the haul road and that is sedimentation barriers that have been installed to prevent the transport of sediment during continued operations, operational use of the haul road and once the haul road is no longer needed in this matter to regrade that slope and stay wider, and the material from the southerly depression to regrade and stay wider. Those are the measures that are needed for the haul road.

Mr. Benezra: The storm we had in the last week or so that forced one of those hay bales to go into the water, is this an unusual storm we saw this last week?

Mr. Dunk: Yes

Mr. Benezra: And how would you characterize that, as a 10 yr. storm, 5 yr. storm…?

Mr. Dunk: I don't know what that would be. Those definitions are in an amount of rainfall over a 24 hr. period, and that is what you use to identify those design storms. This storm had 4 inches of rain. You look at that 24 hr. period for the design storm. Another issue to deal with is intensity. This was a very intense storm, that we got a lot rain in a very short duration.

Mr. Benezra: Has CDM been asked since that time or up until tonight to make any determination as to what else may be done there so if we had a reoccurrence of that storm we wouldn't have a reoccurrence of the breach.

Mr. Dunk: CDM has not been asked.

Bob: Now that question has come up in the aspects that was given to Joe Lynch to have the Environmental Monitor go up there in more frequent time and to also do any needs for protection at that point.

Mr. Benezra: But we haven't been told, sir, that an Environmental Manager will have drainage experience and one of the things I am getting at, I am trying to raise a point to this Commission that in response to your very question, it may be that it is appropriate for you to at least get some guidance as to what that person should be. Thank you very much for making my point, Mr. Chairman.

Bob: We will be doing that in our Order of Conditions.

Mr. Benezra: I wasn't sure because from the conservation and qualifications, I wasn't sure if that was going to be the case. There was a discussion earlier about vernal pools, that raised a vernal pool issue. Regarding the discussion you had on the vernal pools, should you tell me is it usual for CDM to make references based on one sample? Is it good engineering practice to make a determination as to what occurs in one other sample?

Mr. Dunk: The example that I cited was to document that the season has been such that egg masses this year have been present later in the season than one would normally expect.

Mr. Benezra: And would, sir, it be common for CDM to draw a conclusion from the fact like that based upon one other instance?

Mr. Dunk: When you are talking about something that is subject to natural variability, it is a valid use of looking at existing conditions throughout the region to make conclusions about other conditions within that same region.

Mr. Benezra: As a result to the discussion that we had before this Commission last time, has any effort been made with CDM to look throughout any other area in the region or to decide whether or not there has been any other observations by anybody who works for CDM?

Mr. Dunk: We have not done that in Melrose.

Bob: Mr. Benezra, we have another individual here. Do you have any questions, sir?

Matt Pecci: A couple, yes.

Bob: Mr. Benezra, one more question please. Someone else has to have a a chance to ask questions.

Mr. Benezra: I am trying to decide which of the three questions I have, sir, is the most important, since you have limited me arbitrarily at three questions on this very important issue.

Bob: When you have your question, I will move on to the other members of the public.

Mr. Benezra: In 1996 CDM was involved in the master plan that you referred to earlier?

Mr. Dunk: I was not involved in the plan.

Mr. Benezra: But CDM was?

Mr. Lynch: Yes

Mr. Benezra: And at that time it was not CDM, but it was an outside expert who was asked to do those studies regarding vernal pools and other issues in that area, not CDM.

Mr. Dunk: I did not work on this project.

Mr. Benezra: But you read the report, sir?

Mr. Dunk: A report was furnished by another person.

Matt Pecci, 39 Ridgewood Lane: This may be broader than the haul road, but I just want to know how many yards are being brought into the site and from which central artery compacts, and also if the Central Artery know it is being shipped to Melrose?

Mr. Lynch: On the last question I do know that the Central Artery does know its material is going from Boston to here. I cannot tell you which Central Artery sites and I cannot tell you what this whole volume will be.

David: it is probably worth noting that at prior meetings the type of fill was described as pure Boston blue clay.

Nancy: It is Boston blue clay. It is underneath the yellow base clay.

Paul: The term, fill, may be somewhat confusing. Once it is here, it becomes fill. In its original location in Boston, it is not fill material. It is original native material.

Matt Pecci: It is purely tip clay?

Nancy: It is a clay fill.

Matt Pecci: Does it undergo chemical analysis by the artery prior to coming out here?

Mr. Lynch: Yes, the Central Artery Project is obligated to adhere to very strict testing regiment protocol, then it comes and requires of its contractors the same stringent testing protocol and the material from the excavated areas to Melrose is controlled in such a way that there is a shipping manifest that is developed as it leaves Boston and the same manifest is accepted as it is received here, and if there is no manifest the material doesn't come in because we cannot ascertain that it came from a controlled site and received at our site, and lastly there is a cross reference between manifest that has left Boston and supposedly on their way to here, in fact maybe there is matching of those manifests.

David: It sounds like they have a system to track it like they would if it was toxic waste. I not implying it was. It is the same idea they do with that.

Mr. Lynch: One of the concerns would be that errant or illegal loads that would come in, once word gets out there is a hole available rate for filling, you could be subject to opportunistic loads coming in from elsewhere, uncontrolled . You need to know the load is coming from where you think they are coming from, so the manifest is put in place as a mechanism to control that.

David: I used to live in an area where there is not many people around and the stuff got dumped.

Mr. Lynch: Once word gets out it seems to have magnified or increased, so the manifest puts in place the controlled mechanism by which the material that comes on site is known to come from the Central Artery Third Harbor Tunnel Project.

Matt Pecci: Do you know the area it is excavated from, do you know if the areas are a non-characterized area on the Central Artery?

Paul: All areas are characterized and the materials being excavated are subject to a pre-characterization that occurs before the excavation. There is also a characterization of the stock pile of material after they finish excavating - before they are distributed. This till and clay would be considered "unregulated material" because of the nature of the material and the analytical results despite all the controls that on its movement would be considered. There are other more stringent levels of control for materials in which they are actually finding contamination.

Matt Pecci: Are the total quantities unknown? The contractor must have given some indication of the amount. From his own purposes, he would know the quantity to find out if it is worth his efforts to mobilize his site to begin with, so he must have some kind of minimum quantity he is given, otherwise he has no idea if he is making money.

Mr. Lynch: I don't know the answer to that. I do know that prior to them commencing haul operations, that a visit was made to the site and based on the department that they saw and some target elevations based on an early conceptual plan of where ball fields might be at, they felt that it was certainly ready enough to at least mobilize for some limited operation. I have no idea if it will ever get to them, probably not, I just don't know, it is a guess. What is a given, we don't intend to receive any more material other than that we can house these facilities.

Matt Pecci: Was there a signed deal between the City and the Contractor?

Bob: That is outside of our jurisdiction. Mr. Benezra, you have two more questions if you want to.

Mr. Benezra: I note that in the 1996 report that has been referred to several times in the last few weeks or few meetings, that there was a recommendation, a passive recreation by CDM in the same area that we are talking about here surrounding these two depressions. Can you tell me what that means, passive recreation?

Mr. Dunk: To be honest I did not prepare this master plan, and I don't know what was intended by those terms, passive recreation.

Mr. Benezra: That is not an engineering term that you are familiar with?

Mr. Dunk: It is not an engineering term. It is referred to as recreation, typically that walking, jogging, picnicking, cross country skiing, etc.

Nancy: I think it is more a planning term, as opposed to engineering.

Mr. Benezra: In between the two items you made a reference to the fact that there were some conclusions made as to whether or not there was a habitat there, and I just would like to ask you very simply if it hadn't been clear cut and you were brought in before the trees were cut, would it have been easier for you to have made a determination as to whether the habitat would or would not have been….

Bob: Are you referring to habitat or are you referring to pool?

Mr. Benezra: No, he referred to habitat.

Mr. Dunk: The area there between the two pools as far as uplands habitat, in my opinion, was probably not sufficiently large enough to support breed and population.

Mr. Lynch: I do want to clarify that point of when Mr. Benezra said prior to it being filled, that in the hydraulic connection that he is suggesting may have existed and thus supported the habitat, just south of water hole #2, which is the northerly depression, along the layer of the gas line, this very area that he speaks of, was undisturbed and remained undisturbed well past the point when Mr. Dunk had performed his inspection and it was based on looking on those undisturbed areas (when I mean undisturbed, I mean undisturbed by the still operational haul road operation), but disrupted some many years ago by the TENNECO gas line easement. If he did evaluate that low area for vegetated species, I need you to elaborate on that to more fully answer Mr. Benezra's question.

Mr. Dunk: I understood the question to be whether or not the area was provided sufficient habitat for vernal pool species.

David: Actually, I think if I could offer clarification because I think it goes back to the question I asked you the first night and we clarified then, and I ask again and that is could sufficient water build up in the northerly pool to cause an intermittent stream or some kind of flow from there to the southerly one, and that could be told from the topography that we have on that, based on what has been observed. There is no channel that has been observed from what's remained and hasn't been disturbed on the northerly depression and based on the volume and what you have seen on terms of high water marks, etc. there is no indication that the water would reach the 196.4 mark to cause to flow into the southerly depression.

Linda Benezra, 340 Porter St.: I don't like to repeat what I asked at the informational meeting, but other people did put some statements into the records, so I want to ask the same question again. Because the discussion was made, the CDM's representative visited the site and made the equation to the comparison to the vernal pool life in Beverly at the same date, I would like the record to show that the fill along this haul road began prior to May 22, 23, the dates that were brought up, and perhaps as early as May 7, I am not sure exactly, but there was substantial activity going on within the area. I don't know what that might mean in terms of displacing any of the wild life in this habitat, but I wanted to put that on the record.

Mr. Lynch: Mrs. Benezra just made a point of getting something into the records in the prior meeting and of the hearing, but the minutes from that meeting I think still speak to themselves, but I think I would like Mr. Dunk to respond as he did in that last meeting with regards to the impacts of prior operations, filling and even to the disturbance of that edge with regards to the viability of evidence in the habitat area.

David: May I ask a question as close as possible to what I asked last time? As a result of the fill or the silt that infiltrated the southerly depression, could it have caused any vernal pool type activity or anything in there, I think it phrased it as a cease to exist. Had these pools been used for breeding prior to the placement of fill for the haul road, the egg masses would have still had been observable even on the date of our inspection and the turbidity within the water may have been present would not have caused the physical degradation of the egg masses? I am going to follow up with a question I didn't ask last time. Theoretically, had the egg masses been there and hatched out, and whatever hatched out been killed by the silt, would the remnants of the egg masses still been present at the time you made the visit?

Mr. Dunk: If they had all hatched out, then there would be very little remnants of the egg masses left, however the tad poles within the egg masses hatch out and emerge over a period of time, sometime several weeks.

David: And your belief is based on what you saw in Beverly and the fact that we have had a cool spring that would have occurred later this year than in normal years.

Mr. Dunk: In fact, one or two months before I had been out at other sites throughout Eastern Massachusetts and Northeastern Massachusetts and saw egg masses two months before that and I think it is the weather this spring has delayed a hatching out.

Bob: All right, at this time we are looking at a Project Notice of Intent submitted to the Conservation Commission concerning the Mt. Hood Haul Road.

Voted: To close the public hearing portion of this meeting.

Bob: In the beginning here, we had a change of applicant, which I think Mr. Dunne and Mr. Benezra has brought up the situation concerning who is requesting the NOI. At this time I have a document in front of me from the Melrose Park Department and it is not signed by the applicant, so at this point I am on unsecured ground on actually who is requesting this particular document. Did you have a letter from the Park Department issuing this particular document?

Mr. Lynch: A Notice of Intent can be filed by a project representative, and bearing that signature clearly noted as such, it is noted as the signature of a representative and that is how they signed it.

Bob: Does the board wish to have the Chairman of the Parks sign off on this document, as would be representative.

David: In my opinion, I don't think we want or need to ask for that. In prior cases involving other landowners, we have had representatives sign off on it. In particular, I am thinking of the Fellsway near the project line, it was represented by a local engineer. We have numerous other cases where it has been represented by an applicant or someone other than the land owner in the case where they hadn't acquired the land yet, and they were asking for our approval before they did it.

Bob: I would have to research that document. I believe the applicant signed it. If you look at the document…

Nancy: It is on page 7 of 8 in the Notice of Intent form, #3.

Bob: What is your opinion?

David: Do you want to take two minutes? I know what file I am talking about.

Bill Dailey: That is fine the way it is.

Bob: We will take it as is then.

David: There was also a question raised as to whether or not there was anything that would authorize anyone, whether it be Park Commission or representative to present this to us, and I had a question I wanted to ask Mr. Benezra along that line. Mr. Benezra, you raised the question was anyone authorized to present to make this request to us on behalf of the Park Commission. We indicated there was no vote to authorize an Order of Intent, but are you aware of any vote that the Park Commission made to authorize the project and the fill to occur that now lists. The reason I am asking is if they voted to authorize this project by extension, we could implicitly state that they would have to make filing to follow up and execute that thing.

Mr. Benezra: I guess where I am coming from is I believe at some point, in other proceedings beyond this, there will be serious questions asked as to whether the proper parties were involved in making determination, and I am just trying to make the same record here. As I said before, I appreciate the applicant's workbook, and I just raised it in the hearing because it made serious topic issues that as far as I am concerned the Park Commission would have to authorize to come here. I don't know that there is an agreement between the Park Commission and CDM. I think it may be between CDM and the City, and my opinion for whatever it is worth, is that the City is not the Mayor in the administration, the City is this board and your jurisdiction. It is its own Board of Appeals in this jurisdiction. That is my point, I just don't want to blindside you. I respect a number of people who are on this commission, and as I said last time, I appreciate the number of people who have been out there, and all I am saying is that issue I intend to raise as a result of whatever decision you do. I am just giving you an opportunity to address, so I didn't blindside because I respect the people here too much to do that.

David: We have someone who was hired somehow by the City of Melrose or otherwise, representing this project, that unless there is some reason to believe otherwise, they are authorized to represent the City, therefore we don't really have any jurisdiction to say sorry, you guys sitting up standing here go away.

Bill: Wholly aside from a legal opinion, I believe we can accept the application. There is a hand here for the City. I am comfortable with the signature. Let's get on to something else.

Bruce: Two more questions. The height of the road at present is about 190 ft. there?

Bob: Approximately.

Bruce: I am ascertaining that by looking at Figure 3. There is a knoll that shows an elevation of 190.5, and that is at the lower portion figuratively, found between two gray areas. The haul road lies below that 190.5 by some 3 ½ - 4 ft., thus estimating the elevation of the haul road be somewhere around 186, 187, increasing in elevation as you would move its way up through the haul road at the area where the access road and the perimeter road diverge. You will see a contour of 189.3, I believe it says. The elevation there is nearly the same. The former perimeter road and the access road are nearly the same. Now the calculation of use for drainage was estimated highest at 130 ft. That road has to be increased in height so that the trucks can get in there and fill?

Mr. Lynch: The construction of haul road is complete in either width, location or elevation.

Bruce: So then in our Order of Conditions, we can say there will be no additional changes in elevation of the haul road.

Mr. Lynch: With the exception of mitigation, measure with the change of elevation will be where it is pulled back and pulled down, but no increase if that is what you are saying? Absolutely.

David: So assume outside the haul road there will be something that is built in the area that is being filled so they can pour it down since the dump truck can't send it really up hill. Meaning that there is going to be something that is built to go up, whether you level up at 230 or somewhat higher.

Mr. Lynch: The haul road itself, this plateau area that now allows trucks to travel well into the site way beyond this area, any maneuvering backing down that used to happen, that is all a thing of the past. They are at a point now where it is happening all on site, so specific to your question, would it be necessary to raise the road, change the road in any way…..

David: I am not referring to the road, once you cross the road in the site where they are dumping, there has to be some kind of ramp you build up to the 230 that is temporary, as you are filling out.

Mr. Lynch: However the concept evolves that in the side slope that becomes either 2 to 1 or 3 to 1, I believe it is 2 to 1 in this area, 3 to 1 in that area, that area would be actually excavated out, not raised up, but during the haul operation, all of this area happens to be parallel to the contours so it does not necessitate that.

Paul: I think as we go over the work file and look at the NOI, or what our responsibilities and jurisdictions are for isolated land subject to plain, I think a lot of the discussions we have been talking about here is preventing fill from getting into the area, concerns about not allowing lands, the water bodies to dry up perhaps, and looking at isolated land subject to flooding, the four things that we have legal jurisdiction to look at, they are the basis by which we should be judging the NOI and work done, is first whether the work being done would cause flood damage due to filling appropriate isolated lands due to the lateral displacement of the water. I'll give my opinion, but filling could occur within this area under the act as long as it did not result in flood damage to adjacent areas. I think there is a misconception that filling of the isolated land subject to flooding is not allowed by the Wetlands Protection Act which is false.

David: It sounds like you described land that is treated similar to the floodplain.

Paul: Correct, so the measure by which we should judge it is whether any filling that had occurred or even any filling which could occur in the future or any inadvertent temporary attributes, if you will, could result in not just flooding in adjacent areas, but actual flood damage in adjacent areas is what is being protected. The second thing that we have jurisdiction over and which we have to judge, is whether any filling in this area or work in this area would result in an effect on public or private water supply, or ground water drinking water supply, and I don't think there are any such public or private roads to the area. The third thing is whether work in this area would affect the ability of this isolated land subject to flooding to control pollution to prevent pollution, and this is specifically water underlayed by a pervious material and given the geology of this area, would you consider this to have pervious material underlying the isolated lands subject to flooding?

Mr. Lynch: With the exception of rock fractures, I believe the underlying material would be impervious.

Paul: That would have been my guess. If, in fact, it is not pervious material, then this criterion doesn't truly apply literally, and work being done there probably wouldn't affect pollution prevention or pollution control anyway. The fourth and final criteria by which we should be judging this is its capacity in this area to act as a vernal pool, if in fact, it is a vernal pool. We have had a lot of discussion about whether it would have been possible or whether the information would have to be 1986 report in combination where the city was specifically looking for vernal pools and did not identify it in combination with the work that was done by CDM to see if currently, and giving all the issues surrounding whether the work that was done would have impaired that decision or not, to identify a vernal pool. So far we had no indication of a vernal pool, but I would also like to point out that legally under the Act and under the regulations, this is not an established certified vernal pool pursuant to regulations and established as such with the Division of Fisheries and Wildlife, we do not have legal authority to consider this a vernal pool, and we would not have to, and I could not consider it a vernal pool in making the decision of being jurisdictional, if it had not been identified as such before the NOI was submitted. The question whether it is, or could have been, or should have been a vernal pool, for the purposes of what we have to consider the NOI, it isn't a point legally. Morally, it may be a different issue, but legally we cannot/should not consider it a vernal pool. Given the wide range in discussion that we had today or having to, in portion, focus on what our legal obligations are in what the limitation on our consideration for the NOI would be, it is fair